From: Subject: TURN ON YOUR T.V.s FOLKS!!! - FirstOnes.com Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:28:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_01C13BC1.16F70960"; type="text/html" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C13BC1.16F70960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Location: http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/Forum1/HTML/004277-4.html TURN ON YOUR T.V.s FOLKS!!! - FirstOnes.com
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Author = Topic:   TURN ON YOUR T.V.s = FOLKS!!!
In Between
Member
posted 09-11-2001 10:03 = PM=20     3D"Click=20   3D"Click   =    =   
quote:
Originally posted by Rick:
Bless those people. The = ultimate act of=20 selfless sacrifice.

Amen

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In Between
Member
posted 09-11-2001 10:05 = PM=20     3D"Click=20   3D"Click   =    =   
quote:
Originally posted by WORF:
I just saw President Bush's = speech, any=20 comments?

Worf


How many more innocents will be lost in this blind pursuit for = revenge.=20

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ZocaloHobo
Member
posted 09-11-2001 10:35 = PM=20     3D"Click=20   3D"Click   =    =   
quote:
Originally posted by In Between:
How many more innocents = will be=20 lost in this blind pursuit for revenge.

Our innocence is forever lost with this tragedy........

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shadow boxer
The Finger Painter
& Master=20 Ranter
posted 09-11-2001 10:55 = PM=20     3D"Click=20   3D"Click   =    =   
now is not the time for anything other than action, innocents die = in every=20 conflict.

The important issue is wether those innocents who die are = killed with=20 intent.

Terrorists do.
We, as a race, do not.

Thats a very thin line, but it is an important one.

Terrorists rely on our compassion to shield them. They will = learn very=20 shortly, I think... that the hostages they take will throw = themselves onto=20 the swords at thier backs...

I know a certain aircrew did just that in Pennesylvania... =

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Waylander
Member
posted 09-11-2001 11:36 = PM=20     3D"Click=20   3D"Click   =    =   
Please don't quote Nostradamus - he was a complete nutcase, whose = jumbled=20 ravings can be interpreted to mean almost anything if you try hard = enough.=20 The most amazing thing about coincidence is that it doesn't happen = more=20 often. These events are appallingly tragic and utterly surreal, = but they=20 were simply the awful work of ruthlessly organised, Evil men. The = worst=20 thing people can do now is panic or to lash out, afraid that WW3 = is=20 coming.=20

No weapon can harm the perpetrators of these inhuman outrages, = and=20 nothing can bring their victims back to life, so let's all be wary = of=20 advocating violence as some sort of solution.

As usual, JMS says it best:

"We've had plenty of experience with sneak attacks. Pearl = Harbor, the=20 terrorists' nuking of San Diego, the destruction of our first Mars = colony.=20 It's a long and bloody history. Do you know what we learned from = it? That=20 a sneak attack is the first resort of a coward."=20

"To start a war over blood spilled so long ago.. Where does it = end? You=20 kill them and take their land. They kill you and take the land = back. On=20 and on and on. The cycle of hatred."

"As strong as you think you are, the one thing you can't stop = is the=20 lone gunman determined to kill you, even if he gets killed in the=20 process."

"...they will do all that they can to destroy us, until the = Universe=20 itself decays and collapses. If the Narns all stood together in = one place=20 and hated, all at the same time, that hatred could fly across = dozens of=20 light-years and reduce Centauri Prime to a ball of ash. That's how = much=20 they hate us."
"You don't have to respond in kind."
"Of = course we=20 do. There's a natural law. Physics tells us that for every action = there=20 must be an equal and opposite reaction. They hate us, we hate = them, they=20 hate us back. And so, here we are: victims of mathematics."=20

"I don't understand."
"Because you have let them distract = you. Blind=20 you with hate. You cannot see the battle for what it is. We are = fighting=20 to save one another, we must realize we are not alone. We rise and = fall=20 together. And some of us must be sacrificed if all are to be = saved.=20 Because, if we fail in this, then none of us will be saved. And = the Narn=20 will be only a memory."=20

"Every day, here and at home, we are warned about the enemy. = But who is=20 the enemy? Is it the alien? Well, we are all alien to one another. = Is it=20 the one who believes differently than we do? No, not at all, my = friends.=20 The enemy is fear. The enemy is ignorance. The enemy is the one = who tells=20 you that you must hate that which is different. Because, in the = end, that=20 hate will turn on you. And that same hate will destroy you."=20

"All around us, it was as if the universe were holding its = breath,=20 waiting. All of life can be broken down into moments of transition = or=20 moments... of revelation. This had the feeling of both."

"G'Quon wrote: 'There is a greater darkness than the one we = fight. It=20 is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we = fight is not=20 against powers and principalities, it is against Chaos and = Despair.=20 Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of = dreams.=20 Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all = around us,=20 waiting in moments of transition, to be born in moments of = revelation. No=20 one knows the shape of that future, or where it will take us. We = know only=20 that it is always born in pain.'"

------------------
"We could barely stop Sierra. How do = we stop=20 them and Havas?"
'I don't know. All I know is that unless you = do stop=20 them it won't
matter who wins and who loses because none of us, = not a=20 single world
in 70 light years in any direction will live to = see a=20 better game.'

"Win or lose, we'll go down fighting. Pour it on, Mr. = Lennier.
Bring=20 us 'Into the Fire'."

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AnlaShok
Member
posted 09-11-2001 11:38 = PM=20     3D"Click=20   3D"Click   =    =   
Words cannot express our feelings as my wife and I watched live as = the=20 second plane rammed Tower 2. Until that point, we thought we were = seeing a=20 nasty aviation accident, the thought of terrorism still distant. = With the=20 sight of a large plane ramming the second tower, I knew it was a = terrorist=20 attack.

We watched from her hospital room until she was taken to = surgery. We=20 both saw the collapses of the towers at the second they occurred.

Words cannot describe the rage I feel toward those responsible = for this=20 atrocity. Only in the realms of fiction has a single act caused so = much=20 death.

I felt anger when I saw the West Bank Palestinians celebrating = in the=20 streets. I felt disbelief when I saw they were celebrating the = deaths of=20 thousands of Americans while driving Ford vans! I felt shame when = I=20 fervently wished to see them all killed by carpet bombing, every = single=20 one celebrating.

I felt strangely let down by the totally vapid and uninspired = speech=20 given by Shrub. He is not a leader. I just hope his leash holders = are=20 better able to cope with this than he can. Six minutes is not = enough time=20 to be the voice of leadership in a crisis.

I do not care if the retaliation for this act is swift. I do = care that=20 it is accurate. I care that it is inevitable. Evidence already = begins to=20 flow in....

Each tower typically held 10,000 employees and up to 5000 = visitors=20 during business hours. There is no way that any of those people = above the=20 impact points had any realistic chance to survive. There were = typically=20 50,000 people working in the WTC complex, as well as 90,000 in the = immediate area. These figures give a rough estimate of = 10,000-15,000 dead=20 in the towers alone, with many more casualties among the people = below.=20 More will have problems due to the asbestos insulation covering a = major=20 portion of the city.

The terrorists timed this in a very deliberate fashion. I wish = to see=20 them destroyed in an equally deliberate fashion, for if we do not=20 eliminate them, they will kill again and again and again....

------------------
AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of = Fate=20 Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious=20 Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"

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Venom06
Member
posted 09-11-2001 11:40 = PM=20     3D"Click=20   3D"Click   =    =   
The United States is reportedly at DEFCON 2 now.

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AnlaShok
Member
posted 09-11-2001 11:40 = PM=20     3D"Click=20   3D"Click   =    =   
Waylander, you missed the most important one:=20

"Never start a fight, but by God, finish one!"

------------------
AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of = Fate=20 Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious=20 Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"

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rhett
Member
posted 09-11-2001 11:48 = PM=20     3D"Click =   3D"Click   =    =   
We must retaliate. IT will happen, and someone will pay.

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Talon Mistsong
Member
posted 09-12-2001 12:58 = AM=20     3D"Click=20   3D"Click   =    =   
It seems a new clause will soon be added to the Articles of War, = making=20 accessory to or harbouring terrorism an act of war. Interesting in = a=20 morbid sense.. this could be a time of living history...

If we survive.

------------------
There are 3 things in life I never = forget: my=20 friends, my enemies, and my access codes.
Never put gasoline in = a fire=20 extinguisher.

"No government, no dictator can hold an imprisioned population = by force=20 of arms forever. There is no power in the universe greater than = the need=20 for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and = armies=20 cannot stand." - G'Kar, The Long Twighlight Struggle

www.globalserve.net/~archons

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whitestar90
Member
posted 09-12-2001 01:20 = AM=20     3D"Click  =20    =   
There will be war that comes out of this, too many people lost = their=20 lives. It is a sad sad day
Atleast the = world=20 governments are finally united against the evil that is=20 Terrorism...

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Ranger Brian
Member
posted 09-12-2001 03:24 = AM=20     3D"Click=20   3D"Click   =    =   
Just to quote a guy on British TV at the moment, who's talking = about=20 terrorists, and the 5 suspects and trying to find them, he's = comparing it=20 to finding a needle in a haystack and said..=20

"Don't try and find the needle, take out the haystack"

-------------------
I have seen the future, and it was dark
and = then I=20 took my shades off...
--
Only the=20 insane have strength enough to prosper,
Only those = that=20 prosper truly judge what is sane.

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Gopher
Member
posted 09-12-2001 03:45 = AM=20     3D"Click =   3D"Click   =    =   
My thoughts and prayers go out to all the families that have been=20 tragically touched by these despicable events. Words cannot = express the=20 shock, horror and sadness I feel at this.

May they rest in peace.

Gopher

------------------
Is this it?

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The Master
Member
posted 09-12-2001 03:45 = AM=20     3D"Click=20   3D"Click   =    =   
I heard about it on radio and seen the second plane hit on tv, = this so=20 seriously sucks

Any group that has members willing to fly planes into buildings = for a=20 "cause" deserve to be bomb with no mercy

A very sad day for the human race....

[This message has been edited by The Master (edited=20 09-12-2001).]

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Biggles
The Man Without A Face =
posted 09-12-2001 05:04 = AM=20     3D"Click=20   3D"Click   =    =   
Well, something like 20 hours after it happened, I'm finally = capable of=20 talking again. But not about this. Not yet. I'm still too = shocked.
I=20 always wanted to go see the World Trade Center towers. It was one = of the=20 many things I wanted to do in life. And now they are gone, I'll = never see=20 them.

------------------
Required reading
Never eat anything = bigger than=20 your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.

"Nonono...Is not Great Machine. Is...Not-so-Great = Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras

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Falcon1
Member
posted 09-12-2001 05:10 = AM=20     3D"Click=20   3D"Click   =    =   
New York will never be the same again.

------------------
'The future is all around us' G'kar
'I = have no=20 surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen

Visit my B5 site at: B5=20 site.

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JohnD
Member
posted 09-12-2001 06:43 = AM=20     3D"Click  =20    =   
quote:
Originally posted by Falcon1:
New York will never be the = same=20 again.

Not meaning to sound callous, but ignoring the fact that = nothing is=20 ever the same as it was in any specific instant in time, sure it = will be.=20 A few months or so after we figure out who did it and we lob a few = score=20 cruise missiles and airstrikes their way, things will be the same = again.=20 We'll forget any lessons we learned and will set ourselves up for = the next=20 terrorist strike. We didn't learn from Lebanon and all the Marines = lost,=20 we didn't learn from Sudan, the first World Trade Center bombing, = the=20 bombing of our destroyer and we didn't learn from Oklahoma city. = Our=20 on-scene human intelligence is still drastically underfunded and=20 undersupported and we still don't take the threat seriously=20 enough.

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Faylorn
Member
posted 09-12-2001 07:19 = AM=20     3D"Click=20   3D"Click   =    =   
quote:
Originally posted by Santiago:
I also don't see anyone = telling=20 them to STFU and go back inside.

Their innaction condones the actions of those many.


I have no sympathy anymore for the palastinians with = their little=20 war with Israel. I say sell Israel even more weapons now. No=20 condemnations for brutal israeli tactics, praise them!


If the intent of the Palastinian chearing was to destroy = whatever=20 support they had left here in the US, they have succeeded=20 wonderfully!


Friend, I see it nearly impossible for you to see this = diabolical act=20 of terrorism from the Palestinian POV given your understandably = agitated=20 condition. However, bear with me. You see the Palestinians work = and think=20 on a different level than you and I. That is to say, everyday is a = fight=20 for survival for them. Every day their women live in fear of rape = by=20 Israeli soldiers and, consequentially, ritual suicide. Every day = the the=20 children live in fear yet more of their sisters/brothers, = uncles/aunts and=20 friends will be killed by Israeli forces. Every day the men and = their=20 teenage sons worry that their family and friends will succumb to = the=20 myriad of perils which plague their people. Disease, starvation, = and the=20 scurge that is the military arm of Israel were/are in the = fore-front of=20 their thoughts EVERY DAY. As such they don't really care much = about the=20 go-nowhere-do-nothing-wishy-washy nature of politics, diplomacy, = and=20 peaceful reform because they don't have long to live before=20 something/someone gets 'em. They want ACTION and they want = VENGEANCE taken=20 against that deliberately annihilating them and they want it NOW. = Sound=20 familiar? If it doesn't, it sure sounds like a nation which,=20 metaphorically in a symbolic nature, has just been slapped in the = face and=20 kicked in the nuts. They don't care that a moderately persuasive = voice or=20 two in a pool of 300 000 000 is against Israel's barbaric = treatment of=20 Palestinians. They don't care that the last American president = made an=20 unimpassioned push for peace with no threat of military action, = attempting=20 to be remembered for something other than his dick. They only care = that=20 America, infamous for its imperialism, slavery, and showy culture = (whether=20 accurate or not) is selling weapons to the people destroying their = homes,=20 raping their women, and driving them further towards the brink of=20 annihilation in what is, on the behalf of Israel's military: = "state-wide=20 terrorism". Given this, it is quite easy to see that they view = America's=20 aid to Israel as we view the Taliban's aid to Bin Laden. And it is = quite=20 easy to see that they take the same position you do: that because = people=20 surrounding Israel/Bin Laden in this case do not deal with them, = that they=20 American/Taliban nation deserve little to no quarter.

------------------
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. = Teach a=20 man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a = fish, and=20 he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live

[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 09-12-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited = 09-12-2001).]

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Falcon1
Member
posted 09-12-2001 07:56 = AM=20     3D"Click=20   3D"Click   =    =   
quote:
Originally posted by JohnD:
Not meaning to sound callous, = but=20 ignoring the fact that nothing is ever the same as it was in any = specific instant in time, sure it will be. A few months or so = after we=20 figure out who did it and we lob a few score cruise missiles and = airstrikes their way, things will be the same again. We'll = forget any=20 lessons we learned and will set ourselves up for the next = terrorist=20 strike. We didn't learn from Lebanon and all the Marines lost, = we didn't=20 learn from Sudan, the first World Trade Center bombing, the = bombing of=20 our destroyer and we didn't learn from Oklahoma city. Our = on-scene human=20 intelligence is still drastically underfunded and undersupported = and we=20 still don't take the threat seriously enough.

I think this one will hit home more though... the sheer scale = of it for=20 one, the attack on the building before was bad but in many ways = minor, the=20 attack on the cruiser was surprising... and you are correct, the = US=20 government failed to learn that from these attacks. Unfortunately = its only=20 when bad things happen that people stand up and take notice. I = think this=20 time people will take notice for quite some time. For one the = American=20 people will start, I believe, to question their governments = foreign=20 policy. This needed to be long ago. I won't go into details or = examples as=20 I haven't got all the facts, but the blind military support of = Isreal,=20 which is the oppressor is just stupid. America prides itself on = democrary,=20 yet spends billions sending military aid to allow the Israeli's to = maintain a campaign of terror against the Palestinians. Israel has = to=20 stop, and America has to stop taking such an anti Islamic stance. = Don't=20 get me wrong, I have no respect for Islamic fundamentalists...=20 unfortunatley, Islamic fundamentalism is a reaction against = American and=20 European foreign policy. Iran had a democracy and look at it = now... Iraq=20 was a British protectorate and look at it now... the Taliban were = assisted=20 by the CIA during the Russian occupation and look at what they've=20 become...

If the US government cannot learn from their mistakes, then = this cycle=20 will continue for along time. I just hope for the worlds sake that = they do=20 learn and fast.

------------------
'The future is all around us' G'kar
'I = have no=20 surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen

Visit my B5 site at: B5=20 site.

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Faylorn
Member
posted 09-12-2001 08:17 = AM=20     3D"Click=20   3D"Click   =    =   
Ya' know, and don't laugh, according to Age of Empires II the Arab = nations, collectively known as Saracens, were once a cultured and=20 honorable people. Then the Crusaders came, who were not cultured = and=20 honorable so the Saracens formed a jihad and became "Crusaders" = themselves=20 - Muslim Crusaders. Since, it's been a contest in Muslim and = Christian=20 locations where they co-exist(?), e.g. planet Earth, of who can = fight the=20 dirtiest. My vote goes to the West 'cause, shucks, they've had AT = LEAST=20 three more centuries of experience. In fact they're so sneaky and=20 underhanded their own trainees turn on them.

All sarcasm aside, the Crusades are when it all began and we're = merely=20 receiving what our ancestors' dished out a thousand years ago.

****Note: I am not a Saracen.

------------------
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. = Teach a=20 man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a = fish, and=20 he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live

[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 09-12-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited = 09-12-2001).]

IP: Logged<= /P>

Falcon1
Member
posted 09-12-2001 09:06 = AM=20     3D"Click=20   3D"Click   =    =   
History repeats itself...

------------------
'The future is all around us' G'kar
'I = have no=20 surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen

Visit my B5 site at: B5=20 site.

IP: Logged<= /P>

eamonmca
Member
posted 09-12-2001 09:17 = AM=20     3D"Click=20   3D"Click   =    =   
You may or may not be aware of some of the rumours and theories = regarding=20 the Flight 93 crash.

Facts:
=3D Flight 93 crashes, with the loss of 45 = lives, approx=20 2 hours (?) after first plane impact.
=3D A Cell phone call = from the=20 plane provides information that the plane was indeed being=20 hijacked.
=3DThis call also notes the presence of white smoke = around the=20 aircraft before impact.
=3D A marine spokesman stated that the = aircrafts=20 target may have been camp david.

Opinions:
=3D It was suggested by a terrorism expert = that the=20 terrorists may have instructed the pilots to take them to "x"=20 city/airport. Then take over the controls for the final approach = (a task=20 that unfortunately does not require extensive knowledge of = flying).

=3D At the time of the hijacking of flight 93, all air traffic = was being=20 shut down. The pilots would have been aware of at least the two = WTC=20 crashes (with their terrorist involvement).

=3D The ability of a passenger on this flight to make a = cellphone call=20 suggests the hijackers did not have complete control of the=20 passengers/crew.

Theories:
It appears entirely reasonable for the = pilots to=20 attempt to stop a further terrorist attack at the cost of their = lives.

Having spoken to a friend of mine who is a pilot, I asked him = to=20 identify the possible sources of 'white smoke' on an aircraft. =
He=20 spoke of 3:
High altitude contrails.
Engine fire=20 extinguishers.
Wing vortexes with condensing water vapour.=20

The aircraft was at low altitude, with no reports of fire. Wing = vortex=20 trails (This can be caused by rapid altitude loss, as H20 vapour = transits=20 from high pressure below the wing, to very low above), can produce = an=20 effect akin to white smoke.

Since the hijackers would be likely to react to any attempt to=20 deliberately crash the plane prematurely, I further asked him how = it would=20 be possible to make a plane unflyable by unskilled operators, in a = matter=20 of seconds.
He responded by detailing the effects of elevator = trim on=20 flight profile. I will summarise.
The purpose of trim is to = maintain a=20 suitable flight profile while keeping the elevater centered to = allow=20 maximum control responsiveness. By setting the trim to 'maximum = down',=20 stick controls alone are insufficient to raise the nose. Until the = trim is=20 reset, the plane will nose down.

He explained that by setting the trim down, shutting down all = engines,=20 and pushing forward on the control yoke; a novice could not = recover the=20 plane.
- Engine resarts are complicated, and require time.
- = The=20 trim controls are not immediately obvious.
- A novice may focus = on=20 attempting to pull up the nose on the control yoke, not realising = these=20 other problems.


I sincrely hope that 45 people did not die for nothing. = Despite the=20 destruction of so much, and so many lives lost, human nature lives = -=20 nurtured by acts of selfless courage.

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Havok
Member
posted 09-12-2001 10:02 = AM=20     3D"Click =   3D"Click   =    =   
quote:

Friend, I see it nearly impossible for you to see this = diabolical=20 act of terrorism from the Palestinian POV given your = understandably=20 agitated condition. However, bear with me. You see the = Palestinians work=20 and think on a different level than you and I. That is to say, = everyday=20 is a fight for survival for them. Every day their women live in = fear of=20 rape by Israeli soldiers and, consequentially, ritual suicide. = Every day=20 the the children live in fear yet more of their = sisters/brothers,=20 uncles/aunts and friends will be killed by Israeli forces. Every = day the=20 men and their teenage sons worry that their family and friends = will=20 succumb to the myriad of perils which plague their people. = Disease,=20 starvation, and the scurge that is the military arm of Israel = were/are=20 in the fore-front of their thoughts EVERY DAY. As such they = don't really=20 care much about the go-nowhere-do-nothing-wishy-washy nature of=20 politics, diplomacy, and peaceful reform because they don't have = long to=20 live before something/someone gets 'em. They want ACTION and = they want=20 VENGEANCE taken against that deliberately annihilating them and = they=20 want it NOW. Sound familiar? If it doesn't, it sure sounds like = a nation=20 which, metaphorically in a symbolic nature, has just been = slapped in the=20 face and kicked in the nuts. They don't care that a moderately=20 persuasive voice or two in a pool of 300 000 000 is against = Israel's=20 barbaric treatment of Palestinians. They don't care that the = last=20 American president made an unimpassioned push for peace with no = threat=20 of military action, attempting to be remembered for something = other than=20 his dick. They only care that America, infamous for its = imperialism,=20 slavery, and showy culture (whether accurate or not) is selling = weapons=20 to the people destroying their homes, raping their women, and = driving=20 them further towards the brink of annihilation in what is, on = the behalf=20 of Israel's military: "state-wide terrorism". Given this, it is = quite=20 easy to see that they view America's aid to Israel as we view = the=20 Taliban's aid to Bin Laden. And it is quite easy to see that = they take=20 the same position you do: that because people surrounding = Israel/Bin=20 Laden in this case do not deal with them, that they = American/Taliban=20 nation deserve little to no quarter

Actually I can completly understand the Palistinian POV in = this. What I=20 can not understand is why someone (Palistinian) would see how = detonating a=20 suicide bomb outside a school when children are leaving would in = any way=20 help prevent this instead of causing more of the same. Isreal is = defending=20 itself against terroism, not trying to annihialate a people. We = will do=20 the same.

My prayers go out to all those who died in these tragedies and = their=20 families.

Find who is responsible for it. Make sure it is accurate = information,=20 and make it so that they and any who help them understand the = depth of=20 their error. Show them why the USA is the strongest country on = Earth. I do=20 not wish any innocents to die. But if a state deliberately helps = anyone=20 who commits an act of terrorism, that state is as guilty as the = ones who=20 comit the act. No state can survive without at least the passive = support=20 of it's people.

I am absolutly enraged.=20

Now I can understand why Isreal takes the stance they take. The = Palastinians do not target any military targets. They target = civilians. I=20 do not agree with Isreals stances on the settlements, but they do = need to=20 defend a civilian population.

Anyone who would like to flame me for the position I am taking, = until=20 yesterday I could not understand why Isreal took the steps it did. = I saw=20 them as excessive. Now I understand.

------------------
Dedicated to all the people who predicted = that=20 the Babylon Project would fail in its mission. Faith Manages.

G'Quon wrote, 'There is a greater darkness than the one we = fight. It is=20 the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight = is not=20 against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and = despair.=20 Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of = dreams.=20 Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all = around us,=20 waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of = revelation. No=20 one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We = know only=20 that it is always born in pain.'

IP: Logged<= /P>

Melkor
Member
posted 09-12-2001 11:08 = AM=20     3D"Click  =20    =   
There are two things that dictate that actions, violent actions, = MUST be=20 taken.

1) Blood calls out for blood. This was a deliberate attack on = the US=20 people. Not the country, not the policy makers, not those = responcible for=20 for our actions in other nations, but the people, those what were = innocent=20 of any kind of transgression. For that, I have no pitty or mercy = in my=20 soul for those who commited these acts, no matter what their = resoning for=20 it. ....no pitty, no mercy.

2) A messege must me sent. Sent to all those who would strike = out=20 against the US people. To all those who would consider performing = simmilar=20 acts against this nation and it's people. A messege that will not = soon be=20 forgotten. A messege that says to the world "Don't **** with the = US".

I have never been one to truely advocate violence. But there = are some=20 actions, to which there is no other recourse but to respond in = kind. This=20 is one of those situations. I am not asking for a holy, self = riteous=20 crusade where the streets run red with the blood of those = responcible. But=20 I am asking that SOME action be taken. We cannot sit idly by and = allow=20 this deliberate act of war agains the US people....to go = unanswered.=20

Nor should we forget the cost of yesterdays events. Some will = call out=20 for rebuilding, to heal the wounds. But the wound is such that I = do not=20 think it will ever fully heal. And like those soldiers that payed = with=20 their lives in our wars, the civilians who were the targets of = yesterdays=20 attacks should also be remembered. I propose that the towers NOT = be=20 rebuilt. I propose that on the site of those towers that were the = targets,=20 that we erect a pair of six+ foot tall black marble obelisks. And = on them,=20 we enscribe the names of all those who perished yesterday. One on = the site=20 of each tower. We should do this so that the lessons of yesterdays = events=20 are not forgotten. So that those that come after us, remember what = complacency brings.

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JackN
Lightwave Alien
posted 09-12-2001 01:45 = PM=20     3D"Click =   3D"Click   =    =   
I will not go into a lengthy discourse here, but I will say this:

If a group of people are being attacked by a military enemy, = then it is=20 the military enemy they should respond to.

Car bombing cafe's, schools with children, killing innocent = people in=20 buildings of commerce by flying a commercial plane into it, are = all acts=20 of a coward.

I'll say it here. Bin Laden is a pussy!

Attacking the USS Cole was about the closest thing he did that = came to=20 honor, but not quite.

Let's see him take up a gun and face an American soldier face = to face,=20 then maybe I'll listen to what he has to say.

:X

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Biggles
The Man Without A Face =
posted 09-12-2001 05:45 = PM=20     3D"Click=20   3D"Click   =    =   
All terrorists are insane fanatics who will do anything that their = leader=20 tells them is good for their "cause". The leaders themselves are = wimps who=20 no of no way to fight honourably and so have to attack weak = targets like=20 civilians.

------------------
Required reading
Never eat anything = bigger than=20 your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.

"Nonono...Is not Great Machine. Is...Not-so-Great = Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras

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TheEXone
Member
posted 09-12-2001 05:50 = PM=20     3D"Click=20   3D"Click   =    =   
I agree totaly, I just hope in our search for vengance we do not = go too=20 far and become as bad as those who did this.

I think what the U.S should do is declare war against terrorism = on an=20 international level. But at the same time recruit and fight along = side=20 people in countries like afganistan that are trying to build = freedom. The=20 terrorists who do these cowardly acts are extreemist, and in many = cases do=20 not speak for the majority of the population, they twist a good = and decent=20 religion for their own glory and power. Americans should ban = together with=20 ordinary people all over the world to eradicate this cancer from = our=20 planet. We must declare in a unified voice of hope, that we will = not be=20 afraid, we will fight, and we will prevail.

If such a thing occurs I will glady voluteer, and put my life = on the=20 line to protect the dreams of freedom, not just for America but = for=20 humanity.

------------------
We Live as one, We die as one, We will = face the=20 darkness as one.

"Understanding is a Three Edged Sword- Your side, Their side, = And the=20 Truth...."

IP: Logged<= /P>

Sanfam
Administrator
posted 09-12-2001 06:50 = PM=20     3D"Click =   3D"Click   =    =   
quote:
Originally posted by Rick:
Sanfam-- where are you right = now?

-Rick


I am at home, in the middle of Long Island. I snapped as many = photos as=20 I could yesterday. Such a strong impact on everyone. THe entire = thing was=20 so horrible. When I got home on the bus, I could see the cloud.=20

I'm currently preparing my web server to be a mirror for the = pictures=20 I've gathered.
http://sanfam.dyndns.org:8080/DSC01774.JPG=20

That's what I saw a few hours later. It was abot half the size = of when=20 I first saw it. One can barely visualize it.

IP: Logged<= /P>


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